Mouthpiece placement. Upstream/downstream.

For the benefit of any brass players who happen to read this blog, I will post more things that Mic Smith has generously shared with me! I will include my email, and amend any facts necessary! WARNING: This gets geeky, and only touches on a small area of playing, one which fascinates me all the same.

Hi Mic,

I decided to check out a Curry 3C. from the marketplace, and man it is a really nice mouthpiece. I think it is becoming my fave quickly. It has the big fat sound that the TF has, sounds brighter, slots nicely and is in tune. Cheers for the tip - I thought it would be like a Bach 3C which is why I didn't bother with it for some time, and it isn't! Still favouring the 3M. for lead, but the 3C. could quickly become the go-to piece! I am playing Joseph in a local production in a few weeks time, might see how it goes!

I am still having inconsistent days, but on those good days I am playing up to a good F. At a band competition I had a decent Ab on the cornet... which was uncalled for but out of an immature reaction to a comment made I played the solo cornet line 8va... I didn't do this on the actual competition :)

I wonder if you have experience of players who can switch to an up-stream style embouchure from a downstream type. I reckon it isn't a great idea, but I will admit to doing it for the thrill or when I am really beat, I don't do this much in fairness. I can quite often pick out a double C at about a mf - F dynamic, or up to a G at any volume I want, but I really do avoid this because I reckon it isn't good practise... The give away is when you can't play in the normal register with any security, but the switch is pretty quick, 8th rest if even. I know in 1 example, Bruce Adams (big Scottish trumpeter, really great jazz player) used to gig a lot in his youth (6 hours a night from 14 years old) and I think he hit his lip and he had to do shows and learned how to play upstream and always has since, but that was due to physical damage. That is a pretty serious case! In any case, Bruce has INSANE range - often something I attribute to upstream players.
Anyway, just a quick update - I hope you are well in what is probably unquestionably warmer weather than we have... and I have nothing to complain about... yet! How are those new springs? I emailed Kanstul to see if I can get my 1525 valves moving better

Mic's reply:

Hey Mike,

Like I said, I find my self using the 3C as much as possible. There's something unique about the cup shape that makes it more efficient than say a Bach 1C or 1C shape without losing the depth of sound players like. Before this 3C, if I were on a Broadway show, I would use either the the 3B or 3DE. Now, there is no choice to make...it'll all goes to the 3C. The 3Z I just sold was a great lead piece but I did have to deal with compromises in my sound on or below the staff. After shipping off the 3Z this past week, I worked a couple of studio things where I used the 3C so I basically spent the entire week on that piece. I had a couple heavy-hitter lead gigs this weekend and used the 3DE. I found that there was no loss of power, range or endurance using it as opposed to the 3Z. Sure, it might take a little more air but not much more. I like the depth of sound the DE provides...something that was lacking with the Z.

I know you probably hear all kinds of theories about lead players having to play on extremely small and shallow equipment. They say its a sign of being efficient as a player if one can handle playing all night on a 6A4a. The problem is that your chops have to have room to vibrate and this has nothing to do with the size of one's lips, contrary to popular belief. I've worked beside too many players with huge lips who sound quite good on very shallow cups for this idea to make sense. While I can play on cups as shallow as the 3Z, it did start to feel a little cramped towards the end of the night. With the 3DE, I don't have this feeling. It plays as free as the the 3B I use for classical work.

As far as your upstream experiments go...be careful. It doesn't hurt anything to experiment a little but make sure you aren't killing your "bread & butter" downstream embouchure. I actually took a couple lessons from Doc Reinhardt way back in the day. He "diagnosed" me as a type 3B downstream. He said that a lot of 3B's make a gradual progression towards upstream players due to them performing a lot in the commercial world. As you know, the bottom lip is all but indestructable so moving the placement down to, say 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom can help a player deal with pressure better. I've never messed with it much as what I have works pretty well and it would probably screw up my classical sound. The one thing I do know (for me) is that keeping almost all the weight on the bottom lip is a great way to increase your endurance because it babies the top lip. I used to have an exercise I made up that promoted keeping the bottom lip as the "anchor". I would play some note in the staff and while holding it, I would move my jaw out and slightly rotate the horn down to the point where it ALMOST breaks contact with the upper lip. So, at this point, 100% of the weight is on the bottom lip. Once I got the feel for this, I would start doing everything with this set up. The depth of sound isn't quite as meaty but its more of a feel thing. While I normally play with more weight on the bottom now I will use this little trick on long blows where I don't want to tire the top lip out. I would try this before taking the plunge into upstream but only you can decide if its hurting anything.


I benefited from that info quite a bit. I think my reply email sums this up best - again - this is online for the benefit of others, not me - I have benefited already. Take the care to note why I benefited - I was returning to a previous mouthpiece placement, previously avoided due to damaged tissue in my lip. Soon I will experiment with a 1/3 top, 2/3 bottom lip placement soon, with all pressure on my lower lip. I have not yet tried this - I want to understand the implications of this. I am currently working to consciously lower pressure, extend the lower jaw and solidify a happy placement of mouthpiece - too high was clearly a temporary answer for a temporary problem which in hindsight could have been cured by using a sensible mouthpiece, less pressure and a LOT of long tones. More at the end.

Your comment on mouthpiece placement was very interesting... and rewarding. And above all - even when I reckon my mouthpiece can't get any lower, it still hasn't hit 50-50... (this is when I am lowering it in experiments).

Ok - so I don't change mouthpiece placement just randomly because of emails or because I think I suck and it is bound to be gear related... but I did change it because I remember consciously moving it up once because 1) I had hurt my lip playing too much on a really sharp-rimmed tiny mouthpiece about 2 or 3 years back - moving it up seemed to help (I also went to a larger piece, from basically a Schilke 13a4 size to a B4S - a 3C). and 2) because although the range suffered, my sound on the B4S plus moving the piece higher, was much mellower and pretty. That I now know was substitute for a "useful" tone. Mellow is at times synonymous with dead to the younger player (I was he) I didn't realise how useless such a dead sound was! Anyway - the past week or 2 I have been doing a lot of my blowing on the 3C. or the 3M. - they are soo similar - the 3C. is a better all rounder, the 3M. is less work in big band, yet I want brighter in that case... anyway - after looking at some older photos of me playing - say 4 year old ones - I had a lower mouthpiece placement. So I reckoned it was worth a shot. I don't use that much arm-pressure when playing, so I figure I can't damage myself just experimenting. Well I tried it - it felt foreign, but nice. My sound became more vibrant or clearer, pitching went a bit weird, but when I slotted a note it seemed solid! Chipping and splitting a few easy notes, but everything else was better! I think my horn angle is a little lower now, my range is about the same, my attacks 100% clearer, my sound much fuller (if a little brighter or richer), and my endurance is better surprisingly! I can't muscle high notes as easily when tired - but I don't see this as a downside - I shouldn't be doing that anyway! As for sound - I still like the dark sounds, but the core sound I have on the 3M or C or TF or Z when I can play it is the same, but the overtones and quality differs. The TF is a dream to play, soo easy, I guess I like the looser slots and mellow tone, but it is draining and lacking sometimes. The 3C. is cracker for most everything else - did a little lead on it - sounded good!

Again - thank you for your help - I am glad you mentioned moving the piece down - I had forgotten that I had consciously moved the piece up in the past and by the results I am getting now - it was detrimental! I am no Charlie Scheulter, but I am pleased to have made more of an improvement by what could be returning to my older position, or perhaps even lower than that. I am going to experiment - I will have to get a feel for where it sits optimally for me. I feel like I need some weight on my top lip to make everything work - weight wise I think I play about 1/2 1/2, but trying my best to favour the lower lip - admittedly if I am wrecked there is sometimes a tendency to lay it on the top lip which is bad, but I do try to avoid that!

And there you have what, for me, proved to be invaluable correspondence. Again, I urge you to check Mic's playing - support a fabulous musician!

www.myspace.com/micsmith
"Trumpets Alone" Mic Smith
Available at CDBaby:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/micsmith

I want to stress how player-specific this is. For a full month I have been playing with a lower placement, and it is working for me and probably because I used to play somewhat like this. I am going to try 1/3, 2/3 placement, and work on getting the weight on my lower lip, but I reckon that what I have is what I am going to work with. As Mic and other great teachers say - experiment, but realise when you are doing yourself harm - tread cautiously! Re: downstream/upstream, well I am classed as a IIIB embouchure (downstream), and I make the switch (to upstream) - when I take the head-staggers or sometimes I am just plain done. I know for a fact that working on this and not my normal IIIB setup is detrimental if done in excess. There is also the tendency to play the uppermost notes on a lead pad with the upstream embouchure - this never trains the normal set to do this work and ultimately you (I, me) am taking a step backwards - if that clarifies anything for a reader, I am happy - I learned this the tough way.

Finally, for anyone who gets the WTF face when they read "Curry 3C. mouthpiece" etc etc... I will make a brief synopsis so that you can stay with me.

Deeper mouthpieces emphasise lower harmonics and sound darker/mellower, less harsh. Shallower mouthpieces do the opposite, and there are varying degrees in between. The mid point most often being the "C" mouthpiece. I my case a "Curry 3C.". The reason is that different music demands different sounds, furthermore the shallower mouthpieces facilitate playing louder for longer in the higher tessiatura. This page explains the Curry mouthpieces that I currently use.

If you got this far - pat on the back. If you got this far and don't play a brass instrument - I will buy you a pint!